23 FEBRUARY 1940

SRI AUROBINDO: The hippopotamus is also Swayambhu?

DR. MANILAL: Why not, Sir?

SRI AUROBINDO: That is not science. Evolution doesn't say that.

SATYENDRA (to Manilal) According to you, the world was and will be just as it is: everything, space and air compact with the Nigodha or Jiva from eternity? (Laughter)

SRI AUROBINDO: Space is also Swayambhu then?

DR. MANILAL: Yes, Sir, the creation is infinite; it has no beginning, no end, like a tennis ball! (Laughter)

SRI AUROBINDO: And self-existent with Eliot and his hippopotamus existing from eternity? (Laughter)

SATYENDRA (to Dr. Manilal): If you don't believe God has created this world then God can't help you to get liberation. You have to rely absolutely on your Purushartha (self-effort).

SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so.

SATYENDRA (seeing Dr. Manilal sprinkling on his body the water in which Sri Aurobindo's feet had been washed): And why are you doing this?

DR. MANILAL: I believe in Grace. (Laughter) It is Jainism I am talking of. It says each one gets his liberation by his own effort. Even the Tirthankaras don't help.

SATYENDRA: It is better to foist all responsibility on God for all creation good and bad. Dr. Manilal objects to this because of the creation of Rakshasas.

SRI AUROBINDO: Why? Rakshasas can be interesting.

SATYENDRA: He objects too because of his own bad gall-bladder and heart.

SRI AUROBINDO: That also may be interesting to God. (Laughter) I was thinking that if the Tirthankaras don't help, of what use are they?

DR. MANILAL: They serve as examples.

SRI AUROBINDO: If one has to rely on one's own effort, examples won't matter. He will have to make an effort in any case.

DR. MANILAL: The beings that help are the Sashanadevas who worship the Tirthankaras.

SRI AUROBINDO: Then you can worship them; why the Tirthankaras? If the Devas worship the Tirthankaras, they shouldn't help either, because their ideal is also the attainment of a Tirthankara. Why should they help? Besides, it is a contradiction of the true law of

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Karma. If Karma brings its reward inevitably, then the help of God is unnecessary. If God helps and intervenes effectively and changes the result of action, the law of Karma is not true.

DR. MANILAL: Though Jainism believes in Purushartha one can pray for help.

SRI AUROBINDO: Ah, you speak of Purushartha as well as of help? The former means that you do everything by your own effort. How does help come in? It is illogical.

DR. MANILAL: According to Jainism, each one is alone and the Jain prays, "I come alone, I shall go alone." He practises this Ekatvam (aloneness) in order to get Vairagya (renunciation). But it is not outer Vairagya, like putting on the garb of a Sadhu or monk.

SRI AUROBINDO: But if one is alone and has to become free by his own effort, how do the Tirthankaras, Acharyas and such an infinite number of Siddhas crowded in Siddhasila, come in? Like all religions, it is fantastically illogical. Buddha also said the same thing but the religion said, "I can take refuge in Buddha."

PURANI: There is some similarity between Buddhism and Jainism. Buddha and Mahavira were contemporaries, though they don't seem to have met. Mahavira was born in Vaisali.

DR. MANILAL: In Jainism each soul is bound by ignorance and there are four Lokas represented by the Swastika.

SRI AUROBINDO: Hitler got the Swastika from there then? (Laughter)

SATYENDRA: What is the destiny of the individual according to Jainism?

DR. MANILAL: Mukti.

SATYENDRA: Does one become a Tirthankara?

DR. MANILAL: Nobody can become a Tirthankara. There are only twenty four Tirthankaras for each cycle and they go on cycle after cycle ad infinitum.

SRI AUROBINDO: Twenty-four times Infinity? Or Infinity times twenty-four? (Laughter)

NIRODBARAN (to DR. Manilal): I am staggered by your knowledge of Jainism and am surprised that you don't understand The Life Divine which is no patch on all these complexities. (Laughter)

DR. MANILAL: Really I don't understand The Life Divine. I have tried. What should I do. Sir?

SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know.

Page-476

NIRODBARAN: Sisir Mitra says X is also thinking of coming for Darshan.

DR. MANILAL: How do you decide. Sir, when to give permission for Darshan?

SRI AUROBINDO: It is the Mother who decides. She consults me only for important cases or when she thinks I should be consulted.

DR. MANILAL: Still you can give some idea. Sir, What aspects do you consider?

SRI AUROBINDO: No aspects.

DR. MANILAL: Or whether which person will benefit, which won't.

SRI AUROBINDO: No such consideration. Each case is judged individually. It depends on each case.

24 FEBRUARY 1940

During breakfast the Mother spoke to Sri Aurobindo about his leg.

THE MOTHER: An offer to cure your leg has come from Agarwal. He says he has got some Force by which he will rub his hand over your knee and cure it. He has cured one case of fracture like that.

SRI AUROBINDO (shaking his head): You know there was another man who seemed to have such powers?

THE MOTHER: No.

CHAMPAKLAL: Yes, Mother; he has come for Darshan. Anilbaran says he has cured many cases of leprosy, typhoid and other illnesses. He cures by calling down your Force.

THE MOTHER: If he cures with my Force, I can myself cure Sri Aurobindo. Sri Aurobindo can himself do it. Somebody else need not do it.

CHAMPAKLAL: He has not offered to do anything. We simply heard about him. He had come for Darshan before too. His name is Hanumant Rao.

THE MOTHER: Oh, yes, I remember him now.

CHAMPAKLAL: Mother, why don't you cure Sri Aurobindo or why doesn't Sri Aurobindo himself do it? (The Mother simply smiled.)

Page-477

SATYENDRA: Sri Aurobindo has said the body can be transformed only after the descent of the Supermind into the subconscient.

THE MOTHER: Naturally.

CHAMPAKLAL: It can't be cured before that?

THE MOTHER: It can be.

SATYENDRA: When the Supermind conquers the subconscient physical, it will be automatically all right.

THE MOTHER (smiling): Not automatically.

SATYENDRA: Because it was not done before, Sri Krishna had to leave his body?

THE MOTHER: It is only Sri Aurobindo's case and mine are difficult. Other cases are comparatively much easier. And already some cases have been cured.

SATYENDRA: Even ankylosis.

THE MOTHER: Yes, even a spinal case when the doctors had given up all hope. By two hours constant concentration he was cured, not only cured but he married afterwards and had children.

CHAMPAKLAL (addressing Satyendra): Do you hear?

SATYENDRA: Yes. I didn't say I didn't believe in miracles. I have myself seen many.

CHAMPAKLAL: You believe in them somewhere else but not here.

After the sponging, Champaklal gave pictures by Krishnalal's brother to look at. The brother had come to the Ashram. He became a little deranged and had to go back. Some time later we heard that he died of burns.

CHAMPAKLAL: Pictures by Krishnalal's brother.

SRI AUROBINDO: Krishna's brother? (Laughter. After looking at the the pictures) He is better as a sculptor than as a painter. His paintings are weak and poor imitations, but the sculptures have power and individuality. (Seeing a photograph of him in which his head was bandaged as a result of a lathi charge during the Non-Cooperation Movement) He looks as if he was suffering. (Returning the book) He was predestined to die as he did.

NIRODBARAN: Why such a destiny?

SRI AUROBINDO: His past Karma required some such experience.

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DR. MANILAL: But Karma...

SRI AUROBINDO: Not Karma in the ordinary sense. It is his psychic being, his soul, that had to pass through such an experience in order to exhaust some Karma left over.

PURANI (after some time): I have consulted Shivji. He says the Jains believe that the world is Swayambhu. So from the beginning all species have been the same and the Tirthankara is a Nimitta-karana (instrumental cause). The whole secret of liberation consists in bringing together Nimitta (instrument) and Upadana. Upadana is inherent capacity. Every soul is essentially free and its freedom can be realised with the help of Nimitta and Kala, time. It is like a seed with all potentialities in it but it must have time, environment and other circumstances for its fruition. The Tirthankara is only a Nimitta. Everything has to be done by the Upadana from within. It is like being a lion cub living in a group of lambs; he thinks he is a lamb. But when he sees another lion, he becomes conscious and free. The other lion actually does nothing.

SRI AUROBINDO: How does he become free then? Is there any influence that goes out from a Tirthankara? Does anything help?

PURANI: No. Nothing helps.

DR. MANILAL: It is like this. Sir: you have a house with a garden.

SRI AUROBINDO: All that is metaphor. My question is whether a Tirthankara exerts any influence.

DR. MANILAL: The Acharyas by their teachings.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is a mental influence. I don't want to know about mental and philosophical influence. I want to know if any psychological influence is exerted. The Shishya (disciple) of course may or may not benefit, according to his capacity, openness, etc.; that is granted. But a Guru does give something direct from himself to the disciple. I want to know whether such an influence is given by a Tirthankara.

PURANI: No.

DR. MANILAL: It is said that wherever a Tirthankara is within a radius of four Yojanas¹, all creatures, animals, human beings, etc., live in peace and lose their enmity.

¹A yojana is a varying measure, commonly equal to about eight miles but in ancient times four and a half or even only two and a half miles.

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PURANI: Yes, Dharamchand was telling me of a vision he had about a Tirthankara sitting on a central throne and all the species listening to him.

SRI AUROBINDO: You wanted to be one of the species? (Laughter)

SATYENDRA: If what Dr. Manilal says is true, then there is some influence emanating from the Tirthankara.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is due to his aura.

PURANI (addressing Dr. Manilal ): Are there no instances in the life of Mahavira explaining this?

DR. MANILAL: I don't know. I have to make a research. (To Sri Aurobindo) You also have an aura, Sir- all around Pondicherry, it is said.

SRI AUROBINDO: You mean to say that there is no fighting in Pondicherry? (Laughter)

NIRODBARAN: Not that; but there should be less trouble.disharmony, suffering.

SRI AUROBINDO: Do some research (Laughter)

CHAMPAKLAL: When the Mother's car met with an accident long time ago, it was said that it could happen only because car had gone beyond your aura.

SRI AUROBINDO: Which accident? When the Chauffeur was injured?

CHAMPAKLAL: Yes.

NIRODBARAN: We have heard that there is a protective aura up to a certain limit. Beyond that one is not always safe.

SATYENDRA: Does it mean that people living in Bombay or Calcutta don't get help?

SRI AUROBINDO: It is not like that. An aura is something that projects itself from the vital and physical being; those who are open can feel it and be influenced by it.

DR. MANILAL: When I come for the Mother's interview or even stay here I feel something everywhere, while at Baroda I don't get that peace and calm. Why?

SRI AUROBINDO: Surely there ought to be a difference between Baroda and here? There is no Vallabhbhai here, no office work and no family affairs.

PURANI: About Nigodha, not Jiva, the Jains say there are many micro-organisms inhabiting our body and several other things. A potato, for instance, is compact with these Jivas.

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SATYENDRA: That is why the Jains don't eat potatoes.

PURANI: All vegetables that grow underground have these Jivas.

SRI AUROBINDO: And do the vegetables that grow above the ground have fewer Jivas? For example, in dal or flour are there fewer?

PURANI: Yes. To return to Jainism: each soul, according to it, is free but has chosen to be bound and so it is bound.

SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, it is bound because it has chosen not to be free?

PURANI: And the creation, as we said, is Swayambhu: all species and all forms have been the same from eternity and will remain so.

SRI AUROBINDO: All forms, too? What about the dinosaurs then-and other prehistoric animals? Where are they?

DR. MANILAL: They must be somewhere. (Laughter) It is as in chemistry: in some form they exist somewhere. According to science, nothing can be lost.

SRI AUROBINDO: Does it also mean that you, Manilal, have been just the same Manilal from the very beginning of creation? (Laughter)

DR. MANILAL: Maybe, Sir.

CHAMPAKLAL (to Dr. Manilal): When are you going?

DR. MANILAL: Tomorrow.

SRI AUROBINDO: Tomorrow?

DR. MANILAL: Yes, Sir.

CHAMPAKLAL: You don't want to see the results of your treatment?

DR. MANILAL: Sri Aurobindo doesn't want to try.

NIRODBARAN: But you didn't prove its effectiveness on Purani, as Sri Aurobindo suggested.

SATYENDRA: If you try that rice and dal treatment for the head, let us know the results.

SRI AUROBINDO: Dinner to the head?

NIRODBARAN (to Dr. Manilal): When are you coming again?

DR. MANILAL: August.

SRI AUROBINDO: Or April?

NIRODBARAN (to Dr. Manilal): But next time you may find the door locked.

DR. MANILAL: Send me a wire.

SRI AUROBINDO: What is that?

Page-481

CHAMPAKLAL: Nirodbaran says that no more service may be required of you and so we will all be driven out of your room. He may be right.

DR. MANILAL (to Champaklal): Why do you expect this?

SATYENDRA: It is not his expectation but his fear.

SRI AUROBINDO: Expectation on Champaklal's part in the sense of the French espérer, which means both hope and expectation of-what is to come!

DR. MANILAL: I always feel inspired by an image of Buddha or a photo of Christ. .

SRI AUROBINDO: Photo? There was no photography at that time..

DR. MANILAL: I mean picture. I feel peace within whenever I see one.

SRI AUROBINDO: You may have been a Christian , then , in a past life.

DR. MANILAL: But Shankara does not give me peace.

EVENING

DR. BECHARLAL: Is remaining in the Mother's consciousness the same as Japa?

SRI AUROBINDO: How do you mean?

DR. BECHARLAL: Are we not in the same state?

SRI AUROBINDO: No. Japa is a means to the other, just like constant rememberance; both lead to Mother's consciousness.

DR. BECHARLAL: Aren't Japa and rememberance the same thing?

SRI AUROBINDO: Remembrance is done by the mind, while Japa is done by the speech, the use of a name or something equivalent to it.

DR. MANILAL: Which is better?

SRI AUROBINDO: Both can be effective.

DR. MANILAL: But which is better? Doesn't Japa sometimes tend to be mechanical?

SRI AUROBINDO: It depends on the person.

At this point the Mother came and the talk stopped. During the sponging, Dr. Manilal wanted Dr. Becharlal to resume the talk.

Page-482

DR. MANILAL: Becharlal wants to ask you something more. His questions were not answered.

SRI AUROBINDO: They were.

DR. MANILAL: But not completely.

SRI AUROBINDO: What was incomplete? If you want to ask anything more, ask.

DR. MANILAL: Japa and remembrance seem to me to be the same, Sir.

SRI AUROBINDO: How can they be the same? As I said, you do Japa of a name or some mantra without there being any mental element in it, while you remember something with your mind.

DR. MANILAL: But when I do Japa in my heart, I remember the name of Miraravinda, Miraravinda.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is a name! That is a name!

DR. MANILAL: How can one remember without a name, then?

SRI AUROBINDO: Why not? I can remember you though I may be confused about your name and call you Murtilal instead of Manilal. (Laughter)

NIRODBARAN (to Dr. Manilal): When you go away we shall still remember you.

DR. MANILAL: That will be in connection with my name.

SRI AUROBINDO: Why? It will be your Rupa and Swarupa. (Laughter) Remembrance is dwelling on the idea of God or, if you like, his image.

DR. MANILAL: Japa tends to be mechanical. Sir; one does Japa but at the same time thinks of his household matters, as when one says, "The cow is getting loose!"

SRI AUROBINDO: But sometimes Japa may go on, the cow may also be there, but the mind gets loose. (Laughter)

DR. MANILAL: Which is better. Sir?

SRI AUROBINDO: That depends on the person and the way he does it.

DR. MANILAL: There is Manilal and there is Becharlal, Sir.

SRI AUROBINDO: Ask Becharlal. Which do you find better?

DR. BECHARLAL: Remaining in the Mother's consciousness— that is, feeling the Mother's presence and influence, feeling her action in oneself.

SRI AUROBINDO: That, of course.

DR. MANILAL: What is meant by the Mother's consciousness?

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SRI AUROBINDO: As he said, feeling the presence and the influence.

DR. MANILAL: Remembrance is also getting the presence -they are the same.

SRI AUROBINDO: How? When you are not here, we remember you; when you are here, we have your presence.

SATYENDRA: That means you haven't got the true consciousness; you still have to go by the mind. (Laughter)

DR. MANILAL (after some time) People who worship images do they get their Ishta (chosen deity)

SRI AUROBINDO: It depends on their faith. There are plenty of instances where people have got what they wanted by worshipping images. Images are only forms.

PURANI: At the age of ten, during my sacred thread ceremony at the Ambaji temple in Gujarat, I saw a lot of visions, various lights, many forms of the Mother. I thought that everybody was seeing these things. I had faith, of course.

SRI AUROBINDO: There must have been a living presence in that temple.

SATYENDRA: Yes, Sir. Plenty of people have seen visions there, and people go there with a living faith.

NIRODBARAN (to Purani): How do you know they were the Mother's forms?

SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, that is easy.

PURANI: Those who don't see visions hear sounds.

NIRODBARAN (to Dr. Manilal) which did you get?

DR. MANILAL: Neither.

NIRODBARAN: I would have been in the same boat. We seem to be alike. We must have had some relation in previous life!

SRI AUROBINDO: I suppose that is why both of you have come back as doctors in this life!

DR. MANILAL: But I was not a doctor at that time I went to that temple.

SRI AUROBINDO: Ah, but the doctor must have been latent in you.

DR. MANILAL: Becharlal also is a doctor.

SRI AUROBINDO: He is less of a doctor.

PURANI: He is more of a devotee.

NIRODBARAN: I am less of a doctor too.

Page-484

SATYENDRA: You! You are both a doctor and a devotee. (To Sri Aurobindo) Today, when he was wondering whether to put a sling or not, I told him, "Go to the next room and meditate."

SRI AUROBINDO: Meditate? For what?

NIRODBARAN: To get the decision by intuition.

SRI AUROBINDO: Indecision? (Laughter)

DR. MANILAL: What case?

SATYENDRA: Anusuya's. Nirodbaran says he no longer needs to meditate about it. The decision is automatic now. (Laughter)

NIRODBARAN: Talking of visions, Sisir Mitra told me that Nandalal had a vision of Vishnu in an image. He was going some where and on the way he saw an image of Vishnu in a temple. It was nothing beautiful but he kept on gazing at it till suddenly he saw Vishnu come out from the image and enter into him. When his pupil came to call him he replied in a sort of trance, "Do you know who I am?" Again, once while taking his bath, he saw that it was somebody else who was doing it, not he. Two or three recent paintings he has done just like a passive instrument. He was much amazed.

SRI AUROBINDO: That happens to artists and poets.

NIRODBARAN: But he never had this experience before.

SATYENDRA: These are recent experiences?

NIRODBARAN: Yes.

SRI AUROBINDO: Is he in the habit of doing meditation?

NIRODBARAN: I don't know.

SRI AUROBINDO: If he is, then these experiences may come now and then. There is something there in the consciousness which has been prepared by meditation and one gets these visions and experiences as a result. Otherwise it must have been a natural opening.

NIRODBARAN: He had a two hours' talk with Sisir and was so much moved by Sisir's account of the Ashram that he embraced him.

SRI AUROBINDO: Did Sisir meet him after going from here?

NIRODBARAN: Yes. Tagore seems to be saying that what we are writing here is neither Bengali nor Sanskrit. That won't do in Bengali poetry. Of course Nishikanto is excluded.

PURANI: He wants everybody to follow him. He can't like Dilip since he published Harin's letter in Anami.

Page-485

SRI AUROBINDO: What letter?

PURANI: Harin wrote to Dilip that if they want something new in Bengali they must get rid of Tagore's influence. Tagore is dominating too much.

SRI AUROBINDO (smiling): That is not untrue. I didn't see that letter.

PURANI: Yes, it is there. Dilip also made comments, after which Tagore can't like him. Then you also wrote to Dilip that he has brought some new element in his poems, the element of Bhakti - which no other poet had done before.

SRI AUROBINDO: Bhakti? I couldn't have said that.

PURANI: Perhaps the psychic element, and you didn't include Tagore.

SRI AUROBINDO: About this new poetry, is it true that it is not Bengali?

NIRODBARAN: I don't know. Tagore admits that there may be a spiritual element.

SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, he admits this?

NIRODBARAN: Yes. But, though he may not understand it, why shouldn't it be Bengali? He says he was rather surprised to hear that Sahana had taken up building work instead of music.

SRI AUROBINDO: He heard that? He ought to be pleased as it is a work for the masses.

25 FEBRUARY 1940

PURANI: You know Govardhan Das of Punjab? Congress leader. In 1919 he came here to evade arrest during Non-cooperation. He asked you if he could be arrested here too. You said, "No, one can get protection here." But he was asked by Gandhi to come out of Pondicherry and as soon as he reached Villipuram he was arrested. After that he was sent to jail many times in connection with the Non-cooperation movement. Afterwards he got a job in some Canadian insurance company and made money. He is here now and wants to stay and lead a spiritual life.

CHAMPAKLAL: Does this going to jail benefit one?

SRI AUROBINDO: Benefit in which way? You get the benefit of the experience of jail. (Laughter)

Page-486

CHAMPAKLAL: I mean: Is one helped in any way by trying to keep one's promise and going to jail? Should one always keep one's promise? He had to go from Pondicherry because as a non-violent worker he could not do anything else.

SRI AUROBINDO: If one has made a promise to steal, one is not bound to keep it.

PURANI: Gandhi's view is that one has no right to forsake his duty and if by doing his duty he courts arrest he must do it. That is why Gandhi asked Das to come out of Pondicherry. Not only that: one has no right, he says, to break a promise. For instance, he told our Govindbhai that he had deserted his duty and he should go back to nationalist work.

CHAMPAKLAL: Is one bound to keep such promises and does one profit by keeping them?

SRI AUROBINDO: There is no rule covering all promises. It is not a question of benefit but of doing one's duty. If one has taken up a duty, he has to discharge it so long as he feels bound by it. Otherwise it would be a fault on his part to forsake it. But if he feels that the object which he served has no longer the same value for him, he is no longer bound by any duty.

PURANI: But Gandhi thinks that one can't forsake one's duty once it has been taken up, nor can a promise be broken for any reason.

SATYENDRA: We are mixing up two standards. Gandhi stands for the ethical or moral standard, and anybody abandoning that standard is guilty in his eyes. He does not take his stand on a spiritual standard.

SRI AUROBINDO: The question is not that. The question is whether one is bound to keep one's promise, bound to do one's duty.

CHAMPAKLAL: That is the point on which we want to know your view.

SRI AUROBINDO: One is not bound to keep a promise if there is a call felt for a higher life or if the object or goal of life for which the promise was made has quite changed. Duty exists so long as you are on the moral plane. On the spiritual plane, one has to go where the call of the Spirit leads him. Duty no more binds him.

DR. MANILAL: When people come here for Darshan and don't go back they receive plenty of letters accusing them of forsaking their duty.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes- and we also receive letters!

Page- 487

DR. MANILAL (after a while): Today I got a peace in the meditation, Sir. But that gall-bladder pain came back. It comes now and then.

SRI AUROBINDO: Can't you get rid of the habit?

DR. MANILAL: No, Sir. I have left it to the Grace. (Laughter)

PURANI: Perhaps you want to keep the habit.

DR. MANILAL: No, no, I don't want to keep it at all.

SRI AUROBINDO: But Something in you may want it. Otherwise why should it come?

DR. MANILAL: Which part of me want it, Sir? I myself don't know.

SRI AUROBINDO: The body consciousness may respond to the habit and the vital consciousness may want to accept the law of pain.

PURANI: The Pudgals (material elements), perhaps. (Laughter)

SRI AUROBINDO: The Pudgals are hard to deal with.

DR. MANILAL: But can't one get rid of them?

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it is possible but rather difficult.

DR. MANILAL: Can I follow the process?

SRI AUROBINDO: Not yet, I think (Laughter)

CHAMPAKLAL: Perhaps some Karma still remains. (Laughter)

NIRODBARAN: (to Dr. Manilal): But the pain may be good for you in some way.

DR. MANILAL: On the contrary it comes in the way of my divine consciousness. (Laughter) I mean when the pain comes I forget the Divine and all my concentration goes to the pain. I can remember the Divine more when there is no pain.

SRI AUROBINDO: But there are people who forget God when they are happy, and remember more in the midst of suffering.

SATYENDRA (to Dr. Manilal) Like the Sufis and the Bhaktas you should rejoice in the suffering and think that it is a message of the Beloved.

NIRODBARAN: God may have given you suffering in order to help the growth of your soul.

SRI AUROBINDO: The commentators on Shakespeare say that when he was in trouble he wrote the great tragedies.

DR. MANILAL: It is like Nero fiddling when Rome was burning.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is different matter. God may smile and say, "Suffering will do good to Manilal." (Laughter)

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NIRODBARAN (to Dr. Manilal): Is there no gospel of suffering in Jainism?

PURANI: Yes, there is. Jainism says that suffering helps the soul to grow from a lower to a higher status and that suffering is the result of past Karma.

DR. MANILAL: That is Nirjhar. There are two kinds of suffering: Sakama (with desire) and Akama (without desire). Sakama is that which one imposes on oneself and Akama is what comes uninvited to one.

PURANI: Fasting has a great place in Jainism.

DR. MANILAL: Mahavira used to fast for more than six months at a time. But I cannot fast at all. When not hungry, I can live on very little milk.

SRI AUROBINDO: Americans fast for forty days. Goethe used to take only one meal a day, but that meal was very big.

DR. MANILAL: How shall I get rid of this pain in the gall bladder, Sir?

NIRODBARAN: Concentrate on your Self and forget the pain.

DR. MANILAL: I can't forget it. If I try, it says, "I am, I am." (Laughter)

SRI AUROBINDO: Can't you separate yourself from the body? You should try to think you are not the body, you are not the mind. Then you won't suffer.

DR. MANILAL: No, Sir, I can't separate myself. I try to keep quiet and detached, but when the pain comes, I forget everything. I want to be so strong that nothing will shake me. (As Dr. Manilal said this, he gave Satyendra a blow from behind. Satyendra started smiling.)

NIRODBARAN: He is emphasising his strength by a blow on Satyen's back.

DR. MANILAL: I am not beating Satyen.

PURANI: Nobody beats him.

SRI AUROBINDO: Nobody can beat anybody.

DR. MANILAL: It is like the story about Alexander, Sir. Alexander wanted to take away an Indian Sadhu with him. The Sadhu refused. Alexander threatened him with punishment of death. The Sadhu replied, "You have never uttered a greater lie in your life." (Laughter) I believe, Sir, that you can take any poison without any harm. You seemed to have said this to somebody, not to me.

SRI AUROBINDO: Nor to anybody else. (After a pause) But such a thing is possible. There are people who can do that. They have to

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do some Kriya after taking the poison. Also one can accustom oneself to poison by taking it in a small quantities. You know the story of Mithridates, the great enemy of the Romans. He accustomed himself to all poisons. There was no poison that could kill him. But when he was in danger of being caught by the Romans, he couldn't kill himself by taking poison. He had to ask somebody to slay him.

EVENING

SATYENDRA: You have said, Sir, in The Life Divine that only the absolute idealist can persist in this path. How, then, can ordinary mortals like us —

SRI AUROBINDO (smiling): It is not for ordinary mortals.

SATYENDRA: Even the Vedantic realisation is too high they say, for the Kaliyuga—and your path is so much longer.

SRI AUROBINDO: Not so much a longer path as a new path -one that has not been trod before by others.

SATYENDRA: Will it be easier for those to come, just because we are treading it?

SRI AUROBINDO (smiling): Naturally.

NIRODBARAN (to Satyendra) But you will have the glory of having been a pioneer.

SATYENDRA: I don't want to be a pioneer. I am satisfied with much less. (To Sri Aurobindo) Thinking of your Yoga, Sir, I feel like Arjuna when he laid down his bow after seeing the two vast armies on the battlefield ready to slaughter each other, and said to Krishna, "I am not able to stand and my mind seems to be whirling."

NIRODBARAN: Perhaps you have come as a Arjuna in this new play of Krishna.

SATYENDRA: For you it is all right. You have begun with Intuition on the way to Supermind.

SRI AUROBINDO (referring to Nirod's famous intuition about brinjal): From Brinjal to Supermind? (Laughter)

SATYENDRA: I am satisfied with the realisation of the Self. Supermind can be left to Manilal.

NIRODBARAN: Intuition is the first step to Supermind, isn't it?

SRI AUROBINDO: First step?

NIRODBARAN: When Manilal had asked you what Vivekananda had taught you during your innner contact with him in jail, you

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replied that he had taught you about Intuition as a first step to Supermind.

SRI AUROBINDO: I may have said something like that, but I didn't mean it as you understand it. What I meant is that one can get a glimpse of Supermind from the Intuition level, and such a glimpse was my first step.

PURANI (after a while): I believe Nirodbaran feels a little dull tonight for want of discussion of Jainism.

SRI AUROBINDO: How?

PURANI: Because of Dr. Manilal's departure.

SRI AUROBINDO: Is all that Manilal says about Jainsim correct?

SATYENDRA: He seems to have learnt the popular side more than the philosophic.

SRI AUROBINDO: Their Tirthankaras seem to have tremendous powers which even the Avatars don't have. The Avatars have to fight all the way with Rakshasas like Ravana.

SATYENDRA: Don't the Avatars come for particular purposes and are they not concerned only with them, so that their field of action is limited?

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes.

SATYENDRA: The Tirthankaras appear to be somewhat like Avatars, because a Tirthankara does not allow knowledge to get lost.

SRI AUROBINDO: Can anybody become a Tirthankara?

SATYENDRA: According to Manilal, no.

PURANI: No, they can be siddhas. Siddhas are something like gods, and there are any number of them, whereas the Tirthankaras are only twenty-four in a cycle.

NIRODBARAN: The question is how the Tirthankaras radiate their influence.

PURANI: On that we are not very clear. Satyendra was saying that something goes out from their aura that makes all get the influence and lose their enmity or their lower nature.

SATYENDRA: What comes from their aura is not the same as what Sri Aurobindo has said about something imparted directly by the Guru.

PURANI: They say that wherever a Tirthankara stands, everybody receives according to his language, opening, etc., and all animals forget their nature, just as when the Mother stands in meditation each receives according to his mode of being.

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